non condensing high efficiency boiler

[ggman]

The boiler efficiency rating as to be 90% and above, so not necessarily it has to be a condensing boiler, if we can reach that level of efficiency with a better heat exchanger without condensing we should be able to install it.
Am I wrong?

 

[Ray Stafford]

I think you are right that efficiency is the key, but is it possible for a boiler to be 90% efficient without the flue gases condensing? If they are at a high enough temperature to avoid condensing, by definition that heat is venting to atmosphere. If that heat constitutes more than 10% of the input, then the efficiency calcs must come out below 90%.

The only way that I could see to overcome it would be to combine a boiler with another technology, but why would anyone want to build a hybrid without maximising the efficiency of both parts?

Or am I missing something?

 

[ggman]

Hi RayThank you for your reply, just to clarify the reason of my question . I've see the boiler that can perform as previously mentioned. It is not imported in UK but I can get old of one easily.It is expensive but not much more of some top of the range normally available boilers.Speaking with people in general every one says that only condensing boiler are to be installing in UK. I found that a false information. the MI :at max nominal power 93.2% efficiency,flue loss 4.9%, loss at the body 1.9%. exhaust gas temperature 108cThe heat exchanger is the tube and shell type all in copper.Will I be allowed to fit one in UK?

 

[Ray Stafford]

Hi RayThank you for your reply, just to clarify the reason of my question . I've see the boiler that can perform as previously mentioned. It is not imported in UK but I can get old of one easily.It is expensive but not much more of some top of the range normally available boilers.Speaking with people in general every one says that only condensing boiler are to be installing in UK. I found that a false information. the MI :at max nominal power 93.2% efficiency,flue loss 4.9%, loss at the body 1.9%. exhaust gas temperature 108cThe heat exchanger is the tube and shell type all in copper.Will I be allowed to fit one in UK?

Hi GGman

A couple of points. Firstly, be careful of how foreign manufacturers quote efficiencies, because they sometimes use a different calculation protocol from the SEDBUK method. I remember having long arguments with a European manufacturer who was quoting figures that "proved" that his boiler was 102% efficient! He wasn't being dishonest, it was just that at that time in Italy they were allowed to use a different methodology for calculating and expressing efficiency. I can't remember the details, but IIRC it was to do with efficiency being calculated input > flame instead of input > water.

Secondly you ask if you would be "allowed" to fit it. So long as you are GSR and the boiler has a CE mark, then there is nothing illegal in the criminal sense of the word that I am aware. However, you are likely to have serious problems convincing building control that you are complying with building regs. If the boiler isnt listed on the SEDBUK database, they are unlikely to be impressed with a foreign manufacturers performance claims.
Contraventions of building regs occur every day, and lots of them go un-noticed and un-actioned, but that doesn't make it a wise decision.

Finally, is it for you or for a customer? If its for a customer, you are probably sentencing them to future problems getting spares, knowledgeable engineers to solve problems etc. If its in your own house, thats something for you to judge - at least until you have to get an EPC to sell the house, when the surveyor will almost certainly downgrade the property because of a "non-condensing" boiler.

Can I ask why you would want to do it? Is it just curiosity?

 

[SimonJohns]

why spend all that money on a boiler that isnt condensing

the efficiency is alot less than a condensing, so buying a cheap ferroli is going to be more cost effective than buying an expensive non condensing

and what makes you exempt from saving energy?

 

[acecharly]

I dont see how you can get a high efficiency non condensing boiler depending on your interpretation of high efficiency that is.

By its very nature a byproduct of combustion is water. Water has three states ice liquid and gas.

In its gaseous form it has its highest amount of energy which was the product of initial energy release from burning gas.

To make the boiler highly efficient that energy has to be reclaimed somehow from the water produced in the reaction of the NG and air which brings the water from its gaseous state down to a lower energy state of a liquid.

 

[doitmyself]

The MI :at max nominal power 93.2% efficiency,flue loss 4.9%, loss at the body 1.9%. exhaust gas temperature 108c

Put us out of our misery and say what the make and model is of this wonder boiler!

 

[desrob]

it does not exist

 

[dancinplumba]

fga'd a vokera excell, and it said it was 90.1% eff. net

 

[SimonJohns]

Isn't a condensing boiler 105+% efficient ?

 

[dancinplumba]

summat for nowt, lovin it, even if its only 5% lol

 

[tamz]

summat for nowt, lovin it, even if its only 5% lol

You've turned green :smile:

 

[dancinplumba]

You've turned green :smile:

cheers tamz, a privilege.

 

[tamz]

You deserve it Steve. Best behaviour from now on. No swearing, spitting, running with dogs, not getting your round in etc etc from now on :lol:

 

[tamz]

Isn't a condensing boiler 105+% efficient ?

That is an impossibility. Most are running nowhere near their stated efficiencies (calculated from a bench test) and only slightly more efficient than the ones they replaced.

 

[SimonJohns]

That is an impossibility. Most are running nowhere near their stated efficiencies (calculated from a bench test) and only slightly more efficient than the ones they replaced.

I must say that I'm not a true believer of what they say. But I have been told it many times and a quick search shows Kane talking about it too
http://www.kane.co.uk/tech-tips-faqs/389-boiler-efficiency

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

That is an impossibility. Most are running nowhere near their stated efficiencies (calculated from a bench test) and only slightly more efficient than the ones they replaced.

i totally agree 3 boilers i serviced last week
ideal classic 50 ff 90.1% efficiency,wb greenstar 28i junior 93% efficiency baxi duotec 33 mk1 96%
all this sedbuk bolox is just that

 

[ggman]

I just wanted to know the difficulties occurred wheninstalling an imported boiler.
I am a retired electronic engineer, plumbing and heatingwhere my first love when I was young notGas safe registered and I don’t want install anything by myself.
The boiler CE homologation number is: 1312BS5049
CE directive are:90/396-CE92/42 low temperature Rated.
The high efficiency without condensing is due to the “gasfired tube” heat exchanger, consisting of a number of vertical copper tubes long 650 mm wetted on a water cylinder theburner is right at the bottom by the time the exhaust gas exits (109c) hasexchanged a great degrees of temperature.
The DHW uses another coiled finned copper16mm diameter heatexchanger always submerged by hot water suitable for any pressure. No divertervalves are used so less problems.
Why I want to get itinstalled? There are not plastic manifolds, rubber hoses and narrow passagesplate heat exchangers, it can be fitted without problem on any old low pressurepipe system, iron pipe and cast iron radiators. It is made to last a lot longerthat any rubbish available in the market
The down fall (850 mm) long and it is heavier 57 kg of which36 are copper. Expensive
They do as well a condensing model using a post condensingunit reducing the flue gasses to 73 C. I am not interest on this model becauseit will be too big and heavy for my use.
For Desrob: it does exist it is not a UFO, just a properlyengineered boiler.
These boilers areonly sold to installers though a factory representative not to the likes of Tescoor any other unscrupulous merchant

 

[doitmyself]

The OP can't be bothered to tell us which boiler he is talking about, but the Homologation Number was sufficient!

[DLMURL]http://www.mcncaldaie.com/BluGas.pdf[/DLMURL] (it's in Italian!)

It's not listed on the Sedbuk database.

 

[SimonG]

He was talking about these back in May, must have decided to resurrect it.

http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/central-heating-forum/35421-condensing-boiler-not-me.html

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

The OP can't be bothered to tell us which boiler he is talking about, but the Homologation Number was sufficient!

[DLMURL]http://www.mcncaldaie.com/BluGas.pdf[/DLMURL] (it's in Italian!)

It's not listed on the Sedbuk database.

looks heaplike good luck getting spares for it

 

[vern]

Looks like something you would see fitted outside on a balcony whilst abroad on your hols, with no flue on for good measure!

 

[ggman]

Looks like if I will get this boiler installed I will be shot.
GasMan reckon that it is a heaplike. what does it mean? is it a technical term? maybe a new efficiency classification. Thank you Gas Man for your professional opinion but you never answer the asked question.
As well can't understand what vern mean ????
You people so called professionals failed to help me to take a decision based on pure technical ground. I am frightened to death as I know that Gas Man is in posses of an Axe , you convinced me I WON'T HAVE THIS BOILER FITTED.
Suggest me one good boiler which will last a long time even if it is made with a lot of expensive plastic, and I will be able to find lots of parts for the yearly repairs, and lots of powerflushing.
Thank you for all the help

 

[TBServices]

There are plenty of boilers that have no plastic parts.

Intergas have only 4 moving parts, supposed to be good.

 

[dancinplumba]

agree with tbservices try intergas

 

[Roger Welton]

Thirded, Intergas are well made.

 

[zzzjim]

Things designed to be used in hotter countries don't often do well in our weather !

( Not a GSR pro ) but daft enough to drive Citroen !

 

[ggman]

Things designed to be used in hotter countries don't often do well in our weather !

( Not a GSR pro ) but daft enough to drive Citroen !

QUOTE=zzzjim;370668]Things designed to be used in hotter countries don't often do well in our weather !

( Not a GSR pro ) but daft enough to drive Citroen ![/QUOTE]
Hi zzz jiim
Have you ever been to northeast Italy between mid December and mid February?
The weather there is very stationary, that region is not exposed to north because is protected by the Alps but is open to east that mean to the Balkans and Russia there are weeks and weeks of fog and frost and Ice it is normal to get temperature of -10 -15 at night, you will see the sun at 11am and already gone by 15 due to freezing fog so thick that you can bump on a person.
When the easterly wind blows is like a razor cutting you ears. I remember as a little boy walking on the Venice lagoon.
The summer now is very hot almost tropical these days
I am also now driving a Citroen, when I was working I always had BMW as company car.
Regards

 

[DirksPlumbing]

You people so called professionals failed to help me to take a decision based on pure technical ground.

You want to talk technical? What do you make of 109 degC? At what temperature do you expect water to condense? How does the boiler make sure that the flue gas temperature does not fall below 100 degC or what ever it is in your place?
And if how does it cope with condensate?
Has the efficiency been calculated against HuB or HoB if it is european? There are two different efficiencies avalaible. One includes the amount of heat gained from condensation and one does not.

Edit: if someone knows the italian equivalent for HuB and HoB please come forward.

 

[vern]

I will be more subtle....google Heath Robinson:smile:

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

Looks like if I will get this boiler installed I will be shot.
GasMan reckon that it is a heaplike. what does it mean? is it a technical term? maybe a new efficiency classification. Thank you Gas Man for your professional opinion but you never answer the asked question.
As well can't understand what vern mean ????
You people so called professionals failed to help me to take a decision based on pure technical ground. I am frightened to death as I know that Gas Man is in posses of an Axe , you convinced me I WON'T HAVE THIS BOILER FITTED.
Suggest me one good boiler which will last a long time even if it is made with a lot of expensive plastic, and I will be able to find lots of parts for the yearly repairs, and lots of powerflushing.
Thank you for all the help

been in this game along time,the boiler your suggesting as i pointed out looks heap like as in a load of tat i might be wrong but unless you can speak italian and know you will get spares in the future why bother? if your looking at a shortcut by putting a new boiler in to a sludged up system your asking way to much do yourself a favour and get it done properly and overhaul the lot

 

[Ray Stafford]

why bother?

Probably because of this post from earlier this year picked up by Simon earlier.

I know the boiler that will suit your system, THE TUBE HEAT EXCHANGER IS MADE IN COPPER, 6 TUBE LONG 60 cm, the DHW heath exchanger is a long serpentine of copper and it is always wet by the boiler hot water, les complications as there is not any complicated and fault prone 3 ways valve, there is only a flow switch when there is DHW request the electronic stops the pump and will give the max power to the burner. Simple isn't it?
These boilers last longer my brother in Italy had one that still running efficiently after 25 years.
I am trying to import them, the manufacturer stated that they are particularly suitable for old system iron pipes and cast iron rads.
Here the link of the website [DLMURL]http://www.mcncaldaie.com/BLUCOND.pdf[/DLMURL] the blucond is actually a condensing boiler, but there are other models, if you're interested I will help you with translations cos the website is only in Italian.
Regards
ggman

my emphasis, and the answer to your question. Good spot Simon.

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[RGII79]

WOULD ONLY BE EFFICIENT ON INITIAL HEAt up once up to temp where would the efficiency go