Back Boilers & ceiling fans

[GrahamM]

Anyone had much dealings with BBU's/fires and ceiling fans in same room?

I am aware the regs state that spillage test should be carried out with fan at all speeds etc., but this does not give any indication about the fans effect on the flue pull for the back boiler.

There have been a number of hospitalisations linked to spillage due to the fans but no clear legislation put in place that I am aware of.
The HSE has recomended that extensive tests be carried out to confirm no spillage, but even this is vague.

A friend of mine covered his behind and AR'ed a BBU/fire the other day because there was a large ceiling fan in room. Did not even go as far as to fully test with fan running. As far as he is concerned it is dangerous. End of. Informed tenant he would reinstate system once fan is diconnected or preferably removed.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

i would take the same attitude as your friend dis-arm the fan

 

[Mbear]

It's only ID if it makes the bbf spill, if it spillage tests ok then it's not AR by any means. Ur friend is being lazy for not testing it. He has a duty of care to spillage test, what if the bbf is spilling and he's left it AR without testing? He's leaving himself wide open to prosecution from the HSA if there's something seriously wrong with the appliance, on his own head be it.

 

[GrahamM]

The spillage test only indicates that the fire may be spilling; it does not indicate that the POC from the BBU may be drawn back into the room under certain conditions. This is what the HSE is at odds about. In the absence of any clear information/standards for this he believes it to be dangerous.

After many cases relating to spillage from the BBU, not necessarily the fire, the HSE has recommended that manufactures condemn the use a ceiling fan in same room of any open fluid appliance unless it can be confirmed that it safe.

There has not been enough testing and there is no clear information available for this scenario to confirm the safe use of a ceiling fan with an open flued appliance.

Is it not better to err on side of caution? The regulations are a guide and do not cover every situation the RGI may face.

 

[newbie1]

you cant ar just because there is a fan you test for spillage with fan at all speeds and fwdd and reverse thats the test its only if its spilling you then increase ventilation to room by approx 50% and retest

ime sorry but your mate is no erring on side of caution hes being lazy not doing the test

 

[wnjswozo]

we would AR this even after all tests were ok on that day,you do atmospheric conditions which on certain days could cause poc to come back into room,so might be ok while your there,but weather change,could end in tears.we would strongly recommend disconection of fan

 

[marleyco]

i once i.d'd a fire which was spilling, after i left the job i felt it might have been atmospheric due to bad weather, wasn't sure until you said that. maybe lucky i came for service that day

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

if you ask gassafe the advice would be disconnect the fan or dont service, personally in my mind its id, with a extractor i even spillage test with kitchen doors open and cooker extractors running just to be sure obviously this in conjunction to all windows/doors closed etc and obviously you do the test with both appliances running

 

[heatman]

dont forget to test with kitchen door open with tumble dryer on fall wack !

 

[GrahamM]

we would AR this even after all tests were ok on that day,you do atmospheric conditions which on certain days could cause poc to come back into room,so might be ok while your there,but weather change,could end in tears.we would strongly recommend disconection of fan

if you ask gassafe the advice would be disconnect the fan or dont service, personally in my mind its id, with a extractor i even spillage test with kitchen doors open and cooker extractors running just to be sure obviously this in conjunction to all windows/doors closed etc and obviously you do the test with both appliances running

Cheers for the reply chaps.
In his mind he new he is working safe and I now know what road I will take if come across this situation in future.
He works for a Property maintenance firm doing housing authority work and all the boss wants is the job done yesterday with as little hassle from housing as possible. He gets little or no backup. All his decisions are scrutinised.

The HSE has flagged how dangerous this situation may become and admit not enough testing has been done. They have said the flue pull may be decreased by upto 30% with ceiling fan in use under certain conditions. All I can guess is they have put it to the side due to the slow decline of open flued appliances.

 

[Mbear]

Cheers for the reply chaps.
In his mind he new he is working safe

( he most certainly is not working safe, earlier in this very thread u said he didn't do the correct tests with the fan running and took it upon himself to AR the appliance, the appliance may have been ID, I'm sorry but this to me is poor and lazy safe working practice)

and I now know what road I will take if come across this situation in future.
He works for a Property maintenance firm doing housing authority work and all the boss wants is the job done yesterday with as little hassle from housing as possible. He gets little or no backup. All his decisions are scrutinised.

The HSE has flagged how dangerous this situation may become and admit not enough testing has been done. They have said the flue pull may be decreased by upto 30% with ceiling fan in use under certain conditions. All I can guess is they have put it to the side due to the slow decline of open flued
appliances.

Complete fan disconnection is reqd if it interferes with poc pull

you cant ar just because there is a fan you test for spillage with fan at all speeds and fwdd and reverse thats the test its only if its spilling you then increase ventilation to room by approx 50% and retest

ime sorry but your mate is no erring on side of caution hes being lazy not doing the test

Spot on newbie, this is my exact opinion on this matter

 

[kirkgas]

Complete fan disconnection is reqd if it interferes with poc pull




Spot on newbie, this is my exact opinion on this matter

if a spillage test fails due to a fan the procedure is to open the window a bit at a time to the point where the spillage test passes then calculate how much extra ventilation is required by measuring the opening you have made to determine the size of the additional vent you have "fitted" by opening the window, it is however thought that adding 50cm2 (not +50%) should be adequate, with a second spillage test after the permanent vent fitted confirming all is well, (obviuosly the install is ID and made safe till the perm vent is fitted) it is totally unacceptable to ID or AR an install with additional extracts, as a ducted cooker hood or tumble drier needs to be considered, you cant tell me these installs should all be ID/AR as well, it is completely acceptable to test fully and properly and leave appliances running if they pass, its just the same as an install with no extra extractors passing and being left on, as they could fail due to variable weather conditions an hour after you leave, test fully and properly and have confidence in your ability to work within the rules

 

[stevetheplumber]

just tell them they can keep the fan but the window has to be replaced with a louvre

 

[GreenArmy]

Kirkgas, i totally agree what your saying about opening the window until spillage does not occur. But, do you know where i can find this procedure written in 'black & white' (apart from your post obviously)? Cheers, Mark.

 

[kirkgas]

Kirkgas, i totally agree what your saying about opening the window until spillage does not occur. But, do you know where i can find this procedure written in 'black & white' (apart from your post obviously)? Cheers, Mark.

taken from BS5400 pt2

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OMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON [FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Bold][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Bold]5.2.1​

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic]

The purpose of the permanent opening is to provide air for combustion and the correct operation of the flue.
Suitable air vent positions are illustrated in Figure 4 (also see​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,BoldItalic][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,BoldItalic]5.1.3[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic]).
It is assumed that a room or internal space can provide adequate ventilation for an appliance up to 7 kW.
Due to tolerances, it is practical for this to apply to heat inputs of 7 kW on both gross and net CV. Appliances
above this rating require purpose-designed vents. Ventilation is normally present due to natural or
adventitious ventilation through floorboards, cracks in window frames and doors, etc. However, the
availability of such ventilation should never be taken for granted as it can be affected by double glazing,
cavity insulation, draught proofing, the method of construction, the installation of extraction fans and so on.
Whilst the conversion of rated input between gross and net values strictly depends on the CV of gas used, in
practical terms a common factor 1.1 should be used. For example, an appliance with a gross heat input
of 16.5 kW has a net heat input of 15 kW (i.e. 16.5 gross​

[/FONT][/FONT]/[FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic]1.1 = 15 net) and to be installed in a room, it requires
a vent of (15 [/FONT][/FONT]p [FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic]7) [/FONT][/FONT]× [FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic]5 cm[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic]2 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic]= 40 cm[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic]2[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic][FONT=CenturySchoolbook,Italic].
If spillage from an appliance is detected, then the whole installation, including the flue, and the ventilation
should be checked and rectified. If spillage occurs and no flue fault is found, increase the ventilation
provided by progressively opening a door or window. If the flue then clears the combustion products,
measure the area of the opening and make provision for the equivalent amount of additional permanent​

ventilation.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[wnjswozo]

kirkgas that reg does,nt apply to a fan causing poc to come back into room from bbu/gf. its commen sense just disconnect fan

 

[GreenArmy]

Thanks Kirkgas

 

[kirkgas]

kirkgas that reg does,nt apply to a fan causing poc to come back into room from bbu/gf. its commen sense just disconnect fan

the reg doesnt mention what is causing the spillage, just the fact that spillage can be negated by adding additional ventilation, i agree it is ok to disconnect a fan if the owner agrees, and you are competant to do so, (remember CYA at work at all times, as a qualified gas engineer i can ID and cap the gas, but who is to say i will disconnect the fan safely) and as i mentioned before we are not only talking about ceiling fans, so say a ducted tumble drier causes spillage, how would you resolve that, would you take the plug off the tumble drier, and how would you advise the customers that to reconnect the tumble could kill them. opening the window to introduce ventilation is the correct method, as long as the procedure is carried out fully, what about a "normal" living room, no fans, driers etc to complicate things, you fit a 6kw radiant fire, we all "know" the room doesnt require a ventg as it is under 7kw, but what we mean is it probably wont need a vent, and a spillage test will decide, if it fails (for whatever reason adventitious vent is not enough) you open the window, get a pass on spillage test and fit a vent, this is the same as an extract fan causing spillage and being solved by adding a vent

 

[stevetheplumber]

when i did a little traning for the gas board they tell you to check every room for fans yes even bedrooms and test for spillage with fans on full and all conecting doors open
personally i think its time that all open flued appliances were phased out, houses just dont leak enough air nowdays to ensure safety

 

[AWheating]

most housing bum. around my area will not allow ceiling fans to be fitted alongside a bbu, fire are ok if tested and passed.

 

[kirkgas]

when i did a little traning for the gas board they tell you to check every room for fans yes even bedrooms and test for spillage with fans on full and all conecting doors open
personally i think its time that all open flued appliances were phased out, houses just dont leak enough air nowdays to ensure safety

this isnt specific to BG this is part of the mandatory tests for flues that have been in place for ever, but TBH the amount of guys who stare at you when you "remind " them of what they should be doing on a daily basis while servicing OF appliances is scarey

 

[AWheating]

and the tenants look...... some look at you as if your are bonkers when you tell them you are going to test there applaince with the door open and extractor running. "Never seen that done before"..... how many times you here that statment?

 

[royston]

and the tenants look...... some look at you as if your are bonkers when you tell them you are going to test there applaince with the door open and extractor running. "Never seen that done before"..... how many times you here that statment?

Yeah then you start explaining why, as if your trying to justify yourself on doing things correctly, does your head in, why carnt everyone do the same. Another one is where you go into the loft to check and the amount of people who say ( no ones checked in their before ) is scary. Ive found loads of pre cast flue blocks spilling in lofts.

 

[stevetheplumber]

i once found the builders had cut a hole for the ridge timber of the roof into the brick work straight into the flue by a good 5 inches loft was full of smoke

 

[GrahamM]

when i did a little traning for the gas board they tell you to check every room for fans yes even bedrooms and test for spillage with fans on full and all conecting doors open
personally i think its time that all open flued appliances were phased out, houses just dont leak enough air nowdays to ensure safety

Only rooms directly leading into the room/compartment that contains the open flue appliance must be checked for fans etc.