Urgent unvented hot water cylinder help needed.

[Scottwood75]

I was called by a friend to have a look at his unvented cylinder. The tprv was discharging into the tundish so I went to have a look, found it like this.

I know there are a few serious errors and would like someone to help identify them all to confront the installer.

The D2 pipework is defiantly wrong and terminates by going through the brick wall into thin air, on a 3rd floor flat. also its plastic overflow pipe.

Comments and thoughts please.

 

[Toddyplumb]

I dont know why they banned swearing on this site as its so frustrating answering these posts without !!!!!!!!
Turn it off, phone building control in the morning and report it to them! In fact phone the HSE and tell them

 

[Scottwood75]

I did, its off and il advise him to contact the hse and report the plumber. thanks for confirming what I suspected.

 

[oldplumber]

If I hadnt seen it I wouldnt believe it, allI can think is its a diy nightmare Im embarassed to be working in the same industry as the numpty who threw that together.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

that is really really bad and highly dangerous as you already know the "plumber" who did that should be strung up by the short and curlies.

 

[Scottwood75]

Thanks everyone, IF possible can you list the faults for me as we are compling a list. So far I have these:

Regarding the set up of your unvented hotwater cylinder, I believe the following faults are present

1: Combined temperature and pressure relief valve: Damaged, possible that it is stuck open which is why the water is discharging. Supposed to be able to twist to make sure it operates but also falls correctly back onto the seating.

Tundish: Should have only D1 pipework in the top and D2 in the bottom, no pipework from the side. Expansion valve pipework should be tee’d into D1

D1 Pipework: must be within 500 mm from the tprv to the tundish

D2 Pipework: MUST be metal and capable of withstanding the temperature of the discharged water (90-95 degrees centigrade). This pipe is plastic overflow pipe.

Must terminate in a safe place where there is no risk to persons in the vicinity, eg this one discharges out of the wall onto the ground below, for example a child may see the falling water and run under it.

D2 pipework MUST be at least one size larger then the outlet size of the tprv

D1 discharge is 15mm, D2 should be 22mm minimum and metal

D2 must fall vertically after tundish for a minimum of 300mm before any elbows or bends

D2 must have a continuous fall to facilitate removal of the discharge water

Combination valve: No balanced cold water supply: means that shower, basin and bath cold is mains pressure instead of having a point after the combination valve to supply it to the shower bath and basin at the same pressure as the hot.

Also just to clarify, I passed my unvented hot water with NICEIC, but it was back in March and have never touched it since, SO I may be a little rusty.

 

[fuzzy]

blimey, call the police!!lol

 

[PlumbBobBob]

i think that covers just about everything, but if the D1/D2 is wrong i'll bet you a pound to a penny that there are more things wrong with this installation.

 

[Toddyplumb]

Thats the thing Steve, what else is wrong !

 

[shorticus]

is that IV on the hws? That's a big no no!

Oh and petty I know but the pipes should be lagged

 

[tamz]

He can use a pipebender. That is all wrong for the standard of installation.
Musta been some kind of plumber who made a c..k up of it all and is a disgrace to the trade.

 

[StuF215]

Thats dangerous
Does the cylinder have an internal expansion gap? If it doesnt then I can't see an expansion vessel!

He could have used pipe clip or two

 

[hihowudoin]

Thankfully this brand/model of cylinder has built in expansion vessel.
Just another point, the drain off has been fitted to the balanced cold water supply connection, therefore not going to drain alot anyway
:-D

 

[mikeb59]

Ye gods wot a nitemare, glad i took my unvented ticket now, wots the odds the PLumber, yea rite didnt read the installation instuctions,

 

[SafeGasInstall]

he can use the pipe bender ,but can not use the hammer drill to put 20 clips ,

shocking install, just makes me wonder what has he done for the rest of the day after finish

this install by 10am !!!

 

[Barry98]

got to be one the governments special super dooper fast trackers

 

[SafeGasInstall]

just noticed prv from combi valve is just sitting on the dish space

 

[unguided1]

I am extremly impressed with the lever valve on the hot water outlet, how lethal is that???
I see loads of installs where the D1 and D2 pipes are installed incorrectly, but I can honestly say I have never seen one this bad

 

[SafeGasInstall]

just looking at the pictures again I wish I can use the pipe bender that good .....

 

[gavinwilson]

does the installer have to put their details/name on the sheet ? also can u run the tundish off into a sink? only asking as im a trainee and like to know the rightway of doing things thnx

 

[bobb]

Bring back hanging

 

[PlumbBobBob]

agreed.

 

[allstarsystems]

what a mess how can these people get away with this what a disgrace to the industry i can see why he didnt want to fill the bench mark out!

 

[tamz]

i can see why he didnt want to fill the bench mark out!

Never had a pen on him?

 

[wiseman]

That is unbelievable! though i did enjoy playing spot the problem. Reminded me of the cylinder they had at college, that was purposely installed wrong! haha. jeeez

 

[shorticus]

is that IV on the hws? That's a big no no!

Oh and petty I know but the pipes should be lagged

this thread just popped up again in my inbox and after re-reading it I have to humbly retract the first part of my original statement, doh!
note to oneself, never underestimate the value of double checking, "measure twice, cut once" as my old tutor used to say.
Still should be lagged though )

 

[cr0ft]

I think the advice given so far is spot on. The only thing I would add is that the installer is allowed to draw off a balanced cold supply prior to the combi valve, using a pressure reducing valve on this. Some manufacturers (Gledhill for one) recommend doing this as it increases the amount of water available to the taps (assuming the mains pressure is over the usual 3 bar working limit for these cylinders. The advantage of doing this would be if the incoming mains is at, say, 10 bars, he can have one hot supply at 3 bars, one cold supply at 3 bars and thus get the benefits of using the fullest amount of incoming pressure/flow rate possible. If that makes sense! If he's done it this way there needs to be a small potable water expansion vessel on the cold pipework after the pressure reducing valve. I doubt there is though!

All of this said, I've not even sat my course yet and I can tell that the D1 and D2 pipework is simply wrong. Any valve on the hot water outlet is wrong. As I understand it all outlets should have separate isolating valves. I believe this is to stop a vacuum situation building up in the cylinder? Maybe someone can enlighten me on this one.

 

[johnwater]

hi all,
i'm new to all this and have recently passed bpec vented and unvented, this is pure frightening to see.
the advice on here is great and very helpful. with mechanical experience, recent plumbing exams passed and a new business I hope to be a part of the change people wish to see.

regards
John

 

[spanners1967]

nice use of bends though... hardly an elbow in sight! lol

 

[nysk2008]

lovely install - think I found the plumber! Defo not got his UVHW ticket though

 

[southcoastboile]

that is shocking! ..... while on the subject, i had a boiler the other day were the prv outlet ran along and then upwards by about 500mm then out the wall and down at ground level (was in an atik), i no this is not correct but the prv would still be able to discharge and would eventualy push water up the pipe and to outside, i informed the customer that this was not correct and got the usual "its been like that for years, no one has ever said about it before" i made a note on my jobsheet as the customer wouldn't pay to have a new hole drilled and pipework altered, just wondered what you guys would do in this situation.

 

[Gray0689]

You did all you could if they don't want it fixed then that's there problem

 

[johnwater]

definitely, you're professional enough to spot the problem which could be seriously hazardous, their call if they wish to ignore this matter, and like you say it's all recorded on your job sheet which covers yourself which is the main thing!

 

[Osp]

Only just noticed this thread - should be used as a teaching exercise on the courses!

Hard to tell from the pics but haven't the electric flexes been fandangled across the doorway as trip wires in an attempt to kill anybody trying to inspect the setup?

And I wonder why the floor looks damp?