renewable

[hammers4spanner]

Just started on a large site of block of flats which is all gas

when i asked the mechanical company (which aint a small one) how come no renewables here they simply said its carp and its not all that its cracked to be.They have been ripping out and re converting to gas alot of renewables that have been installed .

Also a huge mechanical company i recently worked for said the same that reneables are crap

now this is not the first time i have heard this over the last year

do you guys think we are being sold a fast one?

 

[kris]

Id like to hear outcome of this thread as im getting my air source , ground source and solar thermal later this year ,,, but i 2 am interested to what everyone thinks, me personally your average household havent the spare cash to spend on some of these systems, its more your slightly higher in ladder folks,

 

[hammers4spanner]

Im interested on opinions as well because I'm hearing more and more negatives regarding this fuel alternative. Was thinking myself about getting on board the bandwagon , my neighbour has had solar done and said it's carp wouldn't bother.

Now some big firms have worked for have been negative about it,

Starting to make me wonder

 

[IDCHAPPY]

It's a multi billion pound industry so they must be doing something right, but if it's not designed or installed correctly and the installation place isn't designed or built correctly then there's going to be problems.
From 2016 there is *supposed* to be no new gas lines going into new housing schemes. ..

 

[Nostrum]

This isn't anything new, half the continent have used these technologies for years and well.

The difference is they need to be designed and installed correctly. Something that doesn't come cheap compared to any old lad who can chuck a combi on the wall and hey presto.

Which solar are you referring to? P.V or thermal? Both work, ones is more viable than the other in terms of payback.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

I'm going to be doing the courses as well soon as I'm also interested in them .
Might manage to squeeze some PV on my roof in the future

 

[Ray Stafford]

For what its worth, here's my two pennoth.

I think the whole renewable thing has been oversold to the public and the industry. I don't think that the general public is anything like so "green" as they were before 2008/9. Without getting into the whole "oh-yes-it-is, oh-no-it-isn't" climate change debate, it is no longer political or academic suicide to question the green consensus.

Now the government has backed off some of its requirements for zero carbon, and more or less in the same breath has announced plans to ease the way for more fracking.

A little experience has also taught us that it ain't so easy to retrofit green technology, and whilst its much easier in model show-houses, its also not so easy in smaller brownfield sites - particularly when converting other structures for residential use.

I predict a much more gradual (and sensible) take up of renewable technology over two to three decades, led by solar thermal and some ASHP. I also expect to see heat recovery become more main-stream outside of new build. I still expect to be selling gas and oil boilers on the day that retire - probably in 19 years time.

 

[Worcester]

Designed AND installed AND commissioned properly renewables based heating systems works just fine, no, more than that it works great!

Quality assurance in all elements is paramount, and therein lies the problem.

Having contributed to a number of threads the number of people involved in installing boiler and radiators that don't know how to size a system or do heat loss calculations is sad reflection on the 'traditional' plumber.

You have to size the heat generator correctly, you have to size the emitters correctly, you need to design the hydraulics correctly (buffers etc)
You then need to ensure it is installed to the design !
You then need to commission them correctly and finally educate the user how it works.

Leave it to Jo Bloggs GSR plumber and it WILL go wrong. - There again look how many threads there are of carp installed gas heating systems and how many people have problems with them - shed loads.

I do not get involved in the Climate change / sustainability discussions with clients, I do show them how a properly designed, installed commissioned and USED, renewables based heating system can and will save them money.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Just to make it clear Gordon - I am not saying the don't work when, as you say, they are properly designed, installed, commissioned and used.

But whereas a few years ago, it looked like there was a rising and irreversible trend, now I just don't feel it. In 2011 and 2012, I couldnt have a meeting with a big supplier without them ramming renewables down my throat. Only one company has mentioned it to me in the last 6 months.

 

[SimonG]

I was waiting for Worcesters reply , and anticipated the content. Exactly what I would expect from a professional on the renewables installation supply.

However, climate change is gonads, there is scientific evidence that the climate of the earth is cyclic. Its been hotter than this before (without good old homosapien pumping out co2 thinning the ozone) and its been a damn site cooler. It goes around and comes around.

Anyway, the threads not about that.

Now renewables, I know very little about the renewables side, except im not impressed with all these schemes, additional green taxes and the fact that by paying your green taxes one of the smaller countries in the world is going to greatly reduce its carbon footprint. Especially when you have emerging economies spewing out co2. China springs to mind.

I honestly cant remember the last time a customer asked about renewables.

In fact I think renewables shouldnt be called renewables at all. Maybe they should be called alternatives. Its also really funny that it seems to be people that, shall we say, are better off that opt for renewables. Perhaps it makes them feel better about driving round in there 6 litre range rovers doing four gallons to the mile.

To all those making a living off the back of it, crack on and long may it last. Im just waiting for the arse to fall out of the bio mass

 

[Ermintrude]

If arsenal falls out of bio mass gonna be a lot of cold schools and hospitals

 

[efficiencyman]

It`s a bit of a sad state when much of the industry can`t come forward in a positive way. What hope is there for joe bloggs to become informed, save themselves some wonga, burn less fossil fuel, be cosy without the costs, breathe fresh air with MVHR, etc. etc. When even the industry front line has such a negative attitude and understanding of how renewables could work successfully. One thing for certain is that renewables need to be fully understood by the trade installers before it will be taken up in big numbers by anyone other than enlightened greenies.

 

[kris]

Thats exactly it simon , like i said in an earlier post your average joe public will never in his life purchase any renewable heat source , even if hes offered a payment scheme it just wont happen, renewables are priced for slightly higher up the earnings ladder , I think also the way the gov has handled the MCS has been diabolical and theyve made so hard to keep track of wots wot when it could have been made so simple,,,,,

 

[hammers4spanner]

Designed AND installed AND commissioned properly renewables based heating systems works just fine, no, more than that it works great!

Quality assurance in all elements is paramount, and therein lies the problem.

Having contributed to a number of threads the number of people involved in installing boiler and radiators that don't know how to size a system or do heat loss calculations is sad reflection on the 'traditional' plumber.

You have to size the heat generator correctly, you have to size the emitters correctly, you need to design the hydraulics correctly (buffers etc)
You then need to ensure it is installed to the design !
You then need to commission them correctly and finally educate the user how it works.

Leave it to Jo Bloggs GSR plumber and it WILL go wrong. - There again look how many threads there are of carp installed gas heating systems and how many people have problems with them - shed loads.

I do not get involved in the Climate change / sustainability discussions with clients, I do show them how a properly designed, installed commissioned and USED, renewables based heating system can and will save them money.

My point are it's not small had firms that are designing these systems it's massive mechanical engineering firms that I have worked for are now saying they are not good .

Firms that lead the way in these sorts of technologies

As for Europe and renewables Germany is sliding towards gas again

 

[hammers4spanner]

Ray has basically stated what I am seeing a green trend that seems to be hitting the buffers a tad

 

[SimonG]

It`s a bit of a sad state when much of the industry can`t come forward in a positive way. What hope is there for joe bloggs to become informed, save themselves some wonga, burn less fossil fuel, be cosy without the costs, breathe fresh air with MVHR, etc. etc. When even the industry front line has such a negative attitude and understanding of how renewables could work successfully. One thing for certain is that renewables need to be fully understood by the trade installers before it will be taken up in big numbers by anyone other than enlightened greenies.

No, its a sad state when there is very little to be positive about. It's been overhyped for political gains. They should have just chucked the money at insulation.

 

[Nostrum]

They have. Most of ECO funding is going towards insulation. The problem with all of the government subsidies is that there is always someone trying to abuse the system to make a fortune, rather than help the cause they were initially released for.

From my experience, most of the negativity is from the mis informed, or those who won't accept change.

Renewables have their place, so does gas and in some instances, oil. There is no 1 technology that fits the bill for all situations, it is about diversity.

With regard to fracking, the expert are now saying extracting it in the UK is now going to be a whole lot more complicated than they had hoped, the shale is layered differently to that in the U.S so more fracturing is required for less product. it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen if you ask me, but what do I know.

The fact is we are in trouble when it comes to energy, we rely to heavily on imported fuel and we don't have a plentiful supply, yet our demand is going up every year.

At least if we have a mixed bag we have options. We can produce electricity through nuclear or solar if required, and biomass / wood pellet can and is being produced now here in the U.K.

Whether or not we save the polar bears from extinction is another debate.

 

[efficiencyman]

AGREED But those with common sense will have already installed insulation, if not tripled it and done something about airtightness, leakage through drafts is appalling even on new buildings.
Insulation is NOT chucked away it`s one of the best investments.
Regards being positive there is so much good research from around the world from the likes of Pasivehaus, Bream etc. to name only two of so much scientific analysis that has evidence of what needs to be done for relief of the demand on finite resources.
I realise the government have made many dumb decision`s but at least they did introduce part `L`even if it did not go far enough.
In the UK alone by 2035 the demands are increasing at an alarming rate we should not ignore. Projected demand on Leccy up 35% Water up 85%, Gas imports massive %----- ? Bury your head in the sand if you like but one certainty it will be out of your pocket if you don`t conserve what you use.

 

[SimonG]

AGREED But those with common sense will have already installed insulation, if not tripled it and done something about airtightness, leakage through drafts is appalling even on new buildings.
Insulation is NOT chucked away it`s one of the best investments.
Regards being positive there is so much good research from around the world from the likes of Pasivehaus, Bream etc. to name only two of so much scientific analysis that has evidence of what needs to be done for relief of the demand on finite resources.
I realise the government have made many dumb decision`s but at least they did introduce part `L`even if it did not go far enough.
In the UK alone by 2035 the demands are increasing at an alarming rate we should not ignore. Projected demand on Leccy up 35% Water up 85%, Gas imports massive %----- ? Bury your head in the sand if you like but one certainty it will be out of your pocket if you don`t conserve what you use.

Re-read my post. 'Chucked at' is not 'chucked away'.

Yep great things from huffhaus, pasivehaus etc. If you have the money.

Bio mass, let me start with the fact that there has been no significant increase in cost in the last ten years. Bit of a loss leader. They wont put it up as it will reduce uptake, once the uptake increases then the price is only going in one direction, and it isn't down. Just look at what happens when gas and electric go up. Coal and logs follow, but not wood pellets?

I'm in business and it's supply and demand. The customer is king. Once I am receiving enough enquiries for alternative energys then I will be more than happy to give it serious consideration. But as nobody is asking then it will be a long way off.

Now where's my sand pit?

 

[SimonG]

Stuff the polar bears, what do they do for me?

Its a dog eat dog world and yes the resources are finite. So is my time on this planet. If it lasts whilst I'm here then that will do for me. Once I'm worm bait I will have very little worry of polar bears, global warming and the latest alternative energy. Steps back and waits for the 'what about the kids, the grand kids, the great grand kids' brigade.

Have a think on this though, I was born in 1968 when man hadn't stepped on the moon (maybe still hasn't ) and look at where we are technological wise. All the doom mongerers don't factor in how technology may advance as the extra demands are placed on the world. Its about time more time and airplay is given to Hydrogen as an alternative energy. After all its by products are heat and water.

 

[efficiencyman]

Here we go again Simon, the sand pit is getting deeper for you mate. Grand children won`t thank your selfishness (no offence intended from me).
"Hydrogen" my experience and that of several universities around the would, is far worse than the great success of Heat Pumps. When we purchased a container of Hydrogen, it cost us £72 plus VAT. It ran our engine for little over half an hour (much of that on tick over) if we could have obtained more power from it, instead of Hot air, water, head scratching, hair loss, etc. the MPG was the opposite, it would not have provided any dent in financial savings. We ended the project at great expense to our sponsors by donating the fuel cell to another university. Don`t mention Hydrogen power to me been there done that !
I am glad my time on this planet has provided so much benefit to all my past customers, too many friends to count, my 9 grandchildren & least say my own Eco improvements all invested well. Hoping your life could give you as much satisfaction as mine, all the best with your sand pit.
PS. That`s more down to earth than playing with the stars !

 

[SimonG]

The sands lovely. I don't blame my forefathers for the state of the planet, it is what it is and we just get on with it. Just like future generations will. Selfishness has nothing to do with it.

So hydrogen needs to be binned just because you couldnt get it to work? Appreciate you have given it a go, but a bit egostistical to assume nobody else will get it to work.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion and respected for it. Yes alternatives do seem to work in some circumstances. But at the minute every double glazing company in the land are throwing poorly designed installations in and then leaving customers with very little support. For those companys battling against this and doing a good job, I doff my imaginary flat cap. We are a long way off of alternatives being the norm. Not because of the alternatives, or the supposed negative attitudes of the main line energy engineers but because of the way they are sold. For every success story you hear about alternatives then theres a handful of bad ones.

So i'll stick to my head in the sand, mis informed, afraid of change attitude. Works for me. For now! When evidence suggests otherwise then I am more than willing to explore those avenues.

 

[Ray Stafford]

We don't actually have an energy problem. The world is awash with energy - far more than we can even dream of using.

Our problem is storing it and relocating it in time and space.

 

[Nostrum]

That would make it an energy problem!

I'm a touch too young to remember the introduction of the combi boiler, no doubt the merchants were full of grumbling old folk putting it down as a flash in the pan?

How about condensing boilers? I remember that one, again everybody whinging about how pointless they are etc etc

or diesel cars, they've come a long way in 20 years, hardly comparable to a petrol in the early days, now they are leading the way in many respects.

With such a huge problem as what we are told it to be (I'm a fence sitter personally, but happy to supply a product to somebody who has made their mind up) it is the collection of small improvements that help the bigger picture.

I will sit back and laugh when/if the demand picks up and everyone starts talking of courses and getting into renewables etc. because without the forerunners pushing the market, the mainstream demand doesn't exist.

Which is the exact reason for the incentives offered. The long term hope is that the increased demand will drive the prices down so that they become a realistic alternative without the subsidy, solar P.V is getting there.

Its a typical Brit attitude, complain but do nothing, or wait for someone else to make the move then follow suit like a sheep. (no disrespect intended)

Personally, I'm genuinely interested in these technologies and have been following the renewable market for about 4 years now. It's this interest that is driving me into this market not the quick buck pound signs.

 

[hammers4spanner]

I remember when combis came out thought they were a god send fo ne honest

Im going to wait at this poiny in time see what happens still seems to be plenty of gas work around and ic a changeover does happen I will do a wee course and suddenly be competant

 

[Ermintrude]

Here we go again Simon, the sand pit is getting deeper for you mate. Grand children won`t thank your selfishness (no offence intended from me).
"Hydrogen" my experience and that of several universities around the would, is far worse than the great success of Heat Pumps. When we purchased a container of Hydrogen, it cost us £72 plus VAT. It ran our engine for little over half an hour (much of that on tick over) if we could have obtained more power from it, instead of Hot air, water, head scratching, hair loss, etc. the MPG was the opposite, it would not have provided any dent in financial savings. We ended the project at great expense to our sponsors by donating the fuel cell to another university. Don`t mention Hydrogen power to me been there done that !
I am glad my time on this planet has provided so much benefit to all my past customers, too many friends to count, my 9 grandchildren & least say my own Eco improvements all invested well. Hoping your life could give you as much satisfaction as mine, all the best with your sand pit.
PS. That`s more down to earth than playing with the stars !

Yep know that feeling we tested and worked on NaBH4 and methanol stacks. Current density was hilarious! Carbon on platinum catalyst on naffion 115 membrane.

Some twonk designed one to work high temp high pressure - 4 bar and 300c - idiot! Like that's ever going in a car!

 

[Worcester]

I like this debate!

I am not sure alternatives will ever come down significantly in price, until the whole industry changes it's approach.

IF new ALL build houses had to be built to code 4 and above as Social houses do, but not for joe public buyer, then the heating costs will reduce for everyone, the heating loads will go down, and then if either over-sized rads or underfloor heating are installed as standard, I can see a time when an ASHP will be as simple to install as a combi, and priced accordingly, ad be designed to be serviced by a BG plumber with replaceable modules . I can remember going to the US in the late 70's early 80's and smaller hotels had individual room aircon units bolted through the wall (maybe some still do). So it can be done.

It will get to that stage, however only if FORCED to, so when the government backs off tightening up the insulation requirements as they have recently done it pushes back that date.

Alternatives (call then renewables if you like ) are here to stay and will slowly become mainstream as the cost of traditional fuels rise higher and higher.

Come 2030 and we'll all be laughing at how inneficient combi boilers were!

 

[Ermintrude]

Thought it was 2020

 

[SimonG]

I see an opening for an earner. Start sticking the old combis you pull out in the back of the garage, get them covered up and then drag them out for antiques roadshow 2050.

 

[Ermintrude]

Isar..... That's a formidable boiler, now a working one would be worth £200,000 but unfortunately yours is like the many thousands of yester year , broken and damaged by an axe welding Neanderthal , in the early 21st century most isar repairs were done with an axe.

 

[Worcester]

isar..... That's a formidable boiler, now a working one would be worth £200,000 but unfortunately yours is like the many thousands of yester year , broken and damaged by an axe welding neanderthal , in the early 21st century most isar repairs were done with an axe.

rflol .....

 

[chris watkins]

How do we generate most of our electricity it this country, what fuel is used ?

Yes our planet has seen hot & colder times but never ever, in all off its history, has the change been so rapid.

 

[SimonG]

I did some work a few years back for a bloke that was heavily involved in electrical generation plants on a large scale. He said we were about 7 to 10 years behind where we should be in moving forward with plans for new power stations. He said we were going to have fun and games in the years to come as the time couldnt be caught back up.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Company I sub to have won a 14 year fit out on a nuclear power station, rat

Does this classify as renewable?

 

[Ermintrude]

Nope not at all. Only enough 232 to supply worlds electric for 25 years topps and the few hundred year half life!