Nightmare time with Worcester Bosch repairs

[Cazza]

Hi

Was wandering if anyone can tell me if a competent boiler repair man should be able to detect a leak on an isolation valve to the boiler fairly easily. Worcester Bosch repair men came out 10 weeks ago to repair what was a leaking left flow unit. They also took boiler apart and replaced a few other things just in case that could leak (prv and expansion vessel). To cut a long story short I've had continuing pressure loss since they came out, one bar every 2 weeks. They kept telling me it couldn't be the boiler but I kept running isolation tests which proved to be the boiler. In all they've come out 7 times and 4 times there has been a leak on the left and right isolation valves. They tried tightening one, then replacing both washers, then replacing the right valve and now hopefully they are coming back to replace the left valve which still looks to be leaking.
Their attitude has been horrible, they are now unwilling to come out again they said if there is a continuing pressure loss after their visit today. I've had this worry for 10 weeks, had to run 4 isolation tests, had to take 8 days off work for their all day appointments getting up very early. I don't think I should have had to go through this. They kept telling me I had practically a new boiler so not to worry about the pressure drop. I think they should have ran some sort of isolation test on the second visit to determine where the leak was and properly diagnose it first (on the second visit they actually put in a new heat exchanger instead of finding the valve leak). Can any competent boiler repair man tell me what they think please?

 

[Rob Foster]

Hi

Was wandering if anyone can tell me if a competent boiler repair man should be able to detect a leak on an isolation valve to the boiler fairly easily. Worcester Bosch repair men came out 10 weeks ago to repair what was a leaking left flow unit. They also took boiler apart and replaced a few other things just in case that could leak (prv and expansion vessel). To cut a long story short I've had continuing pressure loss since they came out, one bar every 2 weeks. They kept telling me it couldn't be the boiler but I kept running isolation tests which proved to be the boiler. In all they've come out 7 times and 4 times there has been a leak on the left and right isolation valves. They tried tightening one, then replacing both washers, then replacing the right valve and now hopefully they are coming back to replace the left valve which still looks to be leaking.
Their attitude has been horrible, they are now unwilling to come out again they said if there is a continuing pressure loss after their visit today. I've had this worry for 10 weeks, had to run 4 isolation tests, had to take 8 days off work for their all day appointments getting up very early. I don't think I should have had to go through this. They kept telling me I had practically a new boiler so not to worry about the pressure drop. I think they should have ran some sort of isolation test on the second visit to determine where the leak was and properly diagnose it first (on the second visit they actually put in a new heat exchanger instead of finding the valve leak). Can any competent boiler repair man tell me what they think please?

I understand from my links in hvac land that WB have got problems. Their team is 300 strong but due to quality issues with their boilers in past few years the waiting time has increased dramatically and properly trained engineers are in short supply.

 

[oz-plumber]

If it were me and I was trying to prove a point, I would:

Isolate the boiler from the heating system.
Plug the PRV valve outlet with a 'plug'
Using a test bucket, pump the boiler up to a pressure of 3 bar, ( the boiler should be able to stand the pressure of the relief valve setting ) and have a look around for leaks.

That would be the only way to determine if the boiler has a leak.

 

[Cazza]

If it were me and I was trying to prove a point, I would:

Isolate the boiler from the heating system.
Plug the PRV valve outlet with a 'plug'
Using a test bucket, pump the boiler up to a pressure of 3 bar, ( the boiler should be able to stand the pressure of the relief valve setting ) and have a look around for leaks.

That would be the only way to determine if the boiler has a leak.

 

[Cazza]

Thanks for your replies.
I don't think they carry out diagnostic tests very well and just replace a load of things that are known to leak and call it a day. Yesterday they've put a large gauge on the radiator and one on the boiler. Pumped it up to 2 bar. They wanted to come back yesterday after only 3 hours, which I knew would show nothing. I insisted a later time. They're coming back this afternoon, both gauges have dropped about 0.15 of a bar that they are yet to see. The left isolation valve on boiler looks a little wet. Maybe their is also a small leak somewhere on underfloor pipes. But definitely also the boiler has leaked. I told them over the phone the boiler gauge has dropped. They've told me they won't come out to me again after today and coming to collect their things. Even though last week they promised if the gauge dropped on the boiler I need not worry it was their problem to get to the bottom of it. So they have gone back on their word, they said they won't charge me and that i'd have to use another engineer. I just hope they at least replace the left valve.

 

[Cazza]

Thanks for your replies.
I don't think they carry out diagnostic tests very well and just replace a load of things that are known to leak and call it a day. Yesterday they've put a large gauge on the radiator and one on the boiler. Pumped it up to 2 bar. They wanted to come back yesterday after only 3 hours, which I knew would show nothing. I insisted a later time. They're coming back this afternoon, both gauges have dropped about 0.15 of a bar that they are yet to see. The left isolation valve on boiler looks a little wet. Maybe their is also a small leak somewhere on underfloor pipes. But definitely also the boiler has leaked. I told them over the phone the boiler gauge has dropped. They've told me they won't come out to me again after today and coming to collect their things. Even though last week they promised if the gauge dropped on the boiler I need not worry it was their problem to get to the bottom of it. So they have gone back on their word, they said they won't charge me and that i'd have to use another engineer. I just hope they at least replace the left valve.

 

[Cazza]

I just looked at both boiler isolation valves and they both still looked wet on top. I did a tissue test and it was moist on both of them. Even though they'd changed the right valve yesterday. Could it just need tighening up or should they have used something else in the nut to stop it leaking?

 

[oz-plumber]

0.15 of a bar is too indecisive.

Do you have plastic piping or copper piping. Plastic expands to pressure and hence reduce pressure readings on gauges.

That amount of pressure drop could be the temperature of the water lowering also.

It could also be attributed to the bladder in the expansion tank adjusting to the set pressures.

The only way you are going to get to the bottom of it is to test the boiler separately and the heating system separately.

 

[Cazza]

Thanks for the information. I've got a mixture of plastic and copper pipes. Upstairs where the boiler is mostly plastic. The boiler/ heating had been cold over night before running the isolation test so not cooling down. I thought it strange the boiler and radiator gauges have both dropped at almost the same rate, they are being tested separated with the boiler isolated from the radiators (valves turned to horizontal). Unless the valves leak inside which would explain the same pressure drop.
There is definitely moisture on the boiler valves though, could these account for a 0.15 bar pressure drop?

 

[Millsy 82]

Have they isolated the boiler from the system? A 0.15 bar drop could just be a temperature drop.

Small leaks are notoriously tricky to locate as a lot of pipework and fittings are hidden in floors, walls and ceilings. The isolation valves under most boilers are a nightmare touch them at your peril. Can almost guarantee when you touch them they will start leaking.

Worcester are well known (especially round me) for just throwing parts at the boiler as the engineers get penalised for return calls I believe.

When you do an isolation test how long do you leave it? Do you make sure the water temperature is exactly the same both times? Breakdown engineers are usually very time limited and especially this time of year so they can't just sit there for 12 hours to test.

 

[Cazza]

Thanks. Yes they have isolated it from system. They have a large gauge on both one radiator and the boiler itself. The boiler/ heating was cold over night so no temperature drop.

I think this is whats happened. Instead of just replacing the leaking left flow unit they also replaced lots of other things too but needed to touch both isolation valves to take boiler apart. This has then resulted in them leaking ever since, which they've never spotted. I've picked the leaks up by doing my own isolation tests (3 times!).

They only wanted to run the isolation test for 3 hours yesterday. I asked them to come back today (at first they didn't want to come back until Monday but too cold to be without heating or hot water that long). So now the isolation test has ran for 26 hours.

I think its the left and right isolation valves leaking. Should I ask them to use thread seal on the valves? Would this help, as even the new valve looks to be leaking.

 

[Welder]

Thanks for your replies.

Cazza. You have to take a step back and look at this much more logically. The hand wringing frustration, although understandable, is not engaging people on your behalf.

Personally, I'd write to Martyn Bridges who is head of technical at WB. Keep the letter factual.

For example, 10 visits withOUT definitive understanding of whether root cause is boiler or pipework. Need more experienced/competent engineer by x date otherwise I shall be forced to engage my own 'expert' and send you the bill if it turns out it is a boiler fault.

Sorry to be so 'brutal', but stop messing about on here and get something moving with those who can effect positive change.

 

[Cazza]

Thanks for your thoughts but Worcester Bosch have already told me they won't help me no more and are refunding my money. I've got the Worcester guy turning up this afternoon and he is supposed to be replacing the left valve (i've been told) and then he is going to take his gauges and leave and they won't come back (great customer service hey! not). Ideally I don't want to have to organise and pay for another engineer to come out just to sort the valves out, which i'm sure is the only cause of leaks. As the right new valve they replaced yesterday is leaking I just wanted some advice on how they can sort that out whilst he is here this afternoon.

 

[Rob Foster]

Where abouts are you, when they all get in then something might gel
centralheatking

 

[Cazza]

Bristol

 

[Welder]

Thanks for your thoughts but Worcester Bosch have already told me they won't help me no more and are refunding my money. I've got the Worcester guy turning up this afternoon and he is supposed to be replacing the left valve (i've been told) and then he is going to take his gauges and leave and they won't come back (great customer service hey! not). Ideally I don't want to have to organise and pay for another engineer to come out just to sort the valves out, which i'm sure is the only cause of leaks. As the right new valve they replaced yesterday is leaking I just wanted some advice on how they can sort that out whilst he is here this afternoon.

I'm out and I completely get why WB have refunded you TBH.
Good luck cos your'e going to need it.

 

[Welder]

I am not allowed to mention Top Up Mate from Flowflex
centralheatking

The bl00dy thing leaks Rob!
Why would she want to keep pouring water into it?

 

[Rob Foster]

Bristol

Kevin Davy Plumbing and Heating Bath is a good outfit
might be KL Davey..if you do get him let me know
his dad was real old school he is fully apprentice trained
and as old as me centralheatking

 

[Riley]

Is this a warranty call or is it a fixed price repair

 

[Cazza]

Is this a warranty call or is it a fixed price repair

 

[Cazza]

It was a fixed price repair.

I know they are refunding me but they created the new leaks. They also promised to get to the bottom of it which they are not.

Yorkshire Dave I don't understand your comment at all. Unless of course your competency level is the same as Worcester Bosch as you think the customer should find and pay for leaks started by engineers

 

[Riley]

Don’t get snarky. I think his point is you need to go higher as was originally said. Arguing the toss with the helpline and engineers who are just there to do a job isn’t going to get you anywhere. Simple fact is yes there could be a leak finishing at the isolation valve however it could be coming from anywhere above. Take what you’ve told us re time off work etc and multiple times where you’ve had to do things yourself and write to the CEO. I’d say for your time wasted they should be contributing to a new boiler or be resolving your issue. Be as blunt as that. They have entered into a contract with you and shouldn’t be allowed to cancel it without penalty

 

[Welder]

Yorkshire Dave I don't understand your comment at all. Unless of course your competency level is the same as Worcester Bosch as you think the customer should find and pay for leaks started by engineers

Ho ho ho ho ho....

It's little wonder so many people are queuing up to help you. Your friendly, engaging personality and razor wit shines through. #Irony

I withdraw my good luck comment because I'm genuinly glad to see you are reaping what you've sown.

 

[Cazza]

Thanks for the support Riley. I think your comments have made me think

Ho ho ho ho ho..

It's little wonder so many people are queuing up to help you. Your friendly, engaging personality and razor wit shines through. #Irony

I withdraw my good luck comment because I'm genuinly glad to see you are reaping what you've sown.

 

[Cazza]

I just didn't like your comment that you "totally understood why WB were refunding me". Sorry if I took it the wrong way, I thought you were being rude and were on their side. WB has put me on edge, after how mean they were yesterday. But I thank you for your previous post and contact name.

Riley thank you for comments, most appreciated. I think perhaps I will write to the CEO then. All I want at the moment is the boiler fixed but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

 

[Riley]

Unfortunately, much as we hate it, we live in a society of he who stamps their feet hardest gets things done. I don’t agree with it but such is life

 

[Rob Foster]

Don’t get snarky. I think his point is you need to go higher as was originally said. Arguing the toss with the helpline and engineers who are just there to do a job isn’t going to get you anywhere. Simple fact is yes there could be a leak finishing at the isolation valve however it could be coming from anywhere above. Take what you’ve told us re time off work etc and multiple times where you’ve had to do things yourself and write to the CEO. I’d say for your time wasted they should be contributing to a new boiler or be resolving your issue. Be as blunt as that. They have entered into a contract with you and shouldn’t be allowed to cancel it without penalty

Contractually WB might well be in breach of their contract, especially
as they are actually involved in an on going dispute. Its like saying your car insurance is invalid because you have had a crash. go get them stay cool and WIN . keep us informed get someone else in
pay them and claim it back. ring trading standards you pay rates
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Rob Foster]

Contractually WB might well be in breach of their contract, especially
as they are actually involved in an on going dispute. Its like saying your car insurance is invalid because you have had a crash. go get them stay cool and WIN . keep us informed get someone else in
pay them and claim it back. ring trading standards you pay rates
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

it would be good to get feed back...thats why we do,this
centralheatking

 

[sammathias]

Vaillant.

 

[Cazza]

Thanks. I've drafted a letter to Martyn Bridges. Worcester Bosch came yesterday and I told him that the left isolation valve is still visibly leaking (even with new washer) and the new right one is also leaking (very strange but a tissue test showed it was). I asked him if he could put some thread seal in the new nut to stop it leaking. He replaced the old leaking left valve and put thread seals in both, he also said he changed a valve or something above the right isolation valve in case it was leaking down onto to it. He also used some joint sealer for pipes or something (can't recall what name he gave me). So he said they won't be leaking anymore (5th time lucky?!). Anyway this morning, before the heating came on, I tested both valves with tissue and they both seem to be dry. I'm hoping this will help the pressure drop problem. Although I'm not sure if it could account for a 0.2 bar pressure drop a week.
If the boiler is finally fixed and this works I will leave it, as they haven't charged me. But if the boiler still seems to be losing a lot of pressure (I may run another isolation test myself if needed) then I will send off the email to Martyn Bridges at Worcester Bosch. Because they should leave me with a working boiler and not a leaking one.

 

[Riley]

Keep in mind that a 0.2 bar pressure drop is not a lot and hence why such a small leak is often undetectable.

 

[John.g]

Thanks for the information. I've got a mixture of plastic and copper pipes. Upstairs where the boiler is mostly plastic. The boiler/ heating had been cold over night before running the isolation test so not cooling down. I thought it strange the boiler and radiator gauges have both dropped at almost the same rate, they are being tested separated with the boiler isolated from the radiators (valves turned to horizontal). Unless the valves leak inside which would explain the same pressure drop.
There is definitely moisture on the boiler valves though, could these account for a 0.15 bar pressure drop?

A 0.15 bar pressure drop isn't IMO just a drop of water from a boiler that's isolated.
If one assumes a 8 litre expansion vessel with a pre pressure of 0.5 bar and a filling (test) pressure of 2.0 bar, then the boiler will lose 0.21 litres of water. If the pre pressure above is 1.0 bar then the boiler will lose 0.28 litres of water for the same 0.15 bar pressure drop.

 

[Cazza]

Yes this is what i've been worried about since as when I asked the last Worcester guy if those tiny valve leaks could have accounted for a 0.15 bar drop in the test he said in his opinion he thinks it could. Which mean't he knew a lot of other people would disagree. Those two valves only had a tiny drop of water on them. The expansion vessel was pressured to 1 bar. The water pressure was put to 2 bar for the test. The weird thing was both the boiler and the radiator gauge fell by 0.15 bar, even though the boiler was isolated. Because I was told 1 bar is like a coffee cup I was thinking 0.15 of a coffee cup is a lot more than a tiny drop with the boiler off (i.e. not evaporating). But everything has been replaced on the boiler that could leak, including the expansion vessel. But like an earlier member said 0.15 bar could be accounted for by a settling down pressure release within the expansion vessel (or within the plastic pipes for the radiators). The only other thing I can possibly think of if they have put in a faulty new heat exchanger or expansion vessel, but that is unlikely. Or is there a leak on my pipes? The Worcester Bosch man did say the isolation tests that i'd been doing weren't reliable because the isolation valves can leak inside so i'm really seeing a drop on my radiator system (but I don't know if he was fobbing me off and I thought his testing with large gauges was supposed to rule that out, hence the whole idea of it)

 

[John.g]

If the Bosch man suspected the boiler isolation valves then surely he could have bled a drop of water off the rads with isolation valves closed, if both pressure gauges then fell together then the isolation valve(s) are passing.
I think that you will have to get someone to rule the boiler in/out, but I can tell you that with a 1 bar pre pressure, and test pressure falling from 2 bar to 1.85 bar that a 6 Litre E.vessel will release 0.21 litres, a 8 litre; 0.28 litres & a 12 litre; 0.42 litres.
In one of your posts you said the pressure was falling 1 bar every 2 weeks, this relates to a leakage (somewhere) of 2.0, 2.67 or 4 litres respectively, boiler or system??.

 

[Cazza]

Thanks John. Yes that is true! He could have tested the isolation valves that way.
After the initial works they did it was dropping a bar every 2 weeks. Several visits later and isolation valves tightened / auto airvent changed/ expansion vessel pressured from 0.4 bar to 1 bar it was more like 0.4 bar drop every 2 weeks or say a bar a month. So something dropped the rate of pressure loss by half. Since he was here 2 days ago the pressure gauge has gone from 1.5 to nearly 1.3. But he did warn me that there would be some air in the boiler so expect an initial loss. Because they say its got to be my pipes just before he left he said I should let it find its only pressure level, and let it go all the way down to 0.5 bar if necessary as that might stop the pipe leak (if there is one). But I don't really want to do that because that will take another 4 weeks and what happens if it drops lower than 0.5 bar then I have a problem. It will be too late to complain to Martyn Bridges by then.
I've turned my boiler off this morning and thinking of running another isolation test for 36 hours on the boiler. As any air should have autovented by now. Also with the two new islation valves I'm guessing they won't leak inside to the radiator pipes.
I will let you know what happens in 36 hours and if the boiler drops. My guess is that it will as I agree around 200ml of water is what must have leaked. But there is no pooling of water under the boiler. So what does that leave that could leak away from the boiler without me seeing? .... prv, expansion vessel or heat exchanger? All of which are new apparently.