Advice/recommendations on heating controls

[Larches]

I'm new to the forum, so first of all 'hi', and I'll say right at the outset that although I've done the odd bit of minor plumbing and electrical maintenance, I'm not an expert by any means. Couldn't tell from the info on the website whether I should even be posting if not in the trade, but as I've used a very similar electrical forum where Joe Public is welcome, I thought I'd give it a go. I'm looking for a bit of advice on heating controls.

A bit of background first... I have a Vaillant EcoTec Plus 415 heat only / open vent boiler which seems reasonably efficient, but I think it's let down by the programmer, a Potterton EP2002. I do find it easier to use than the Drayton programmer in my old house, but this one has a major flaw. Despite being able to switch central heating and hot water on and off independently using the 'Advance' button, the digital timer only allows a programme to be set for both HW and CH - there's no way of timing them independently.

So if I have the heating on all evening, it's constantly topping up the hot water too (unless I remember to switch it off manually), when really it'd be enough for our needs to heat one tankful at say 5pm, and that would last us the rest of the night. Same thing in the morning - I have to set the heating to come on early and go off before I take a shower, or else it would just top up the hot water tank while I'm showering, even though I don't need any more hot water. I'd prefer to have the heating stay on, but without needing to go downstairs and turn off the darned hot water before I have a shower.

Does anyone have any idea how much energy and money is likely to be wasted this way (we have a standard hot water tank and rarely use a whole tankful of hot water between cycles), and whether it's worth spending a bit to get a decent programmer with proper independent CH & HW

I've no idea how long that would take to pay for itself - parts and labour, or whether I shouldn't even worry about it. I had also thought about whether I'd be able to change the programmer myself, but not sure how complicated the wiring is / how likely a straight swap would be. Although I'm not unaccustomed to a bit of minor electrical work, I'm a bit apprehensive about dismantling the current thing to check the wiring, so maybe best to leave it to a pro.

Maybe another option is to go the whole hog and have ‘smart’ controls fitted, like Nest/Hive/Tado or whatever. Another issue is that I don’t like the idea of heating the whole darn house when we’re only using a couple of rooms at a time (maybe I should be writing this on MoneySavingExpert ;-) - the house is a 4 bed detached with bathroom and en-suite so zone control would be good. Currently we have a normal (not particularly accurate) analogue thermostat in the entrance hall and a mixture of TRVs and ordinary valves on the radiators. Any views on these newfangled smart heating controls, and whether it's worth taking the plunge or holding off until prices drop?

Thanks,

Chas

 

[diamondgas]

You probably pee more money against the wall/down the loo each weekend than you'll save with fitting 'smart' controls IMHO ...

If you feel you need to do anything then a 7 day programmer is a first step... It all depends on how much you have to spend? IMHO

 

[tamz]

Whether or no the programmer is an easy swap depends on how it was originally wired.
EP2002's could be used as a junction box for the wiring (most were).
If you have a cylinder stat you won't be heating the hw continuously as it will turn off when it is satisfied. How much you will save is anyones guess. Too many variables.

 

[garnhamr]

You probably pee more money against the wall/down the loo each weekend than you'll save with fitting 'smart' controls IMHO ...

If you feel you need to do anything then a 7 day programmer is a first step... It all depends on how much you have to spend? IMHO

what if he drinks alot?

i tend to agree tho, smart my bum

 

[kay-jay]

Whether or no the programmer is an easy swap depends on how it was originally wired.
EP2002's could be used as a junction box for the wiring (most were).
If you have a cylinder stat you won't be heating the hw continuously as it will turn off when it is satisfied. How much you will save is anyones guess. Too many variables.

Also if the valves are in the airing cupboard you would only be pumping rou d the coil so even without a stat its not a massive waste pumping through an extra metre ir two of cylinder coil

 

[Larches]

Also if the valves are in the airing cupboard you would only be pumping rou d the coil so even without a stat its not a massive waste pumping through an extra metre ir two of cylinder coil

Thanks all for your replies.

Yes we do have a cylinder stat, set to 58, although I'm sure the water gets get hotter than usual when we do allow the HW to stay on with the CH. Unless I'm being thick or ignorant (both possible) maybe that's because we normally switch off the HW before it gets up to temp (I know... legionella etc) although it's on for about 45 mins which I've read should be enough to heat the average tank (foam-lagged, btw).

And yes the valves are in the airing cupboard, so maybe it's not worth worrying about. It just annoys me when I keep hearing the boiler running when the CH isn't calling for heat and we don't need any more hot water :annoyed: (I just need to stop imagining the thing burning money...:rolleyes2.

 

[kay-jay]

aah i thought you meant it was running through the cylinder when the heating was on. if its firing up with the heating off then yes that will be more wasteful.
how old is the cylinder stat? its probably worth changing this, they only cost ten or twelve quid and are a doddle to fit.

 

[Larches]

aah i thought you meant it was running through the cylinder when the heating was on. if its firing up with the heating off then yes that will be more wasteful.
how old is the cylinder stat? its probably worth changing this, they only cost ten or twelve quid and are a doddle to fit.

Well as an example from earlier this evening... the heating and water were both 'on' according to the programmer, but nothing actually seemed to be calling for any heat. Then I heard the boiler fire up like a mad thing (sounded like it was going at full whack), so I jabbed the advance button to turn the HW off, and the boiler immediately ran down again and stopped. It's happened a good few times where the room stat hasn't clicked on but the boiler has fired up, so I could only think it's busy topping up the hot water (sorry I didn't make that very clear in my original post).

No idea how old the cylinder stat is, although the model still seems to be in production (Honeywell L641A1039... for some reason a lot dearer than Drayton/Danfoss/Siemens equivalents, looking at Screwfix). I had thought of changing it at the risk of throwing good money after bad, but was wondering how likely it is to be faulty as they seem pretty simple bits of kit. Guess it's a minor gamble though (and if there's no improvement, at least I've got a spare .

 

[PhoenixServices]

Personally. I would go new cylinder stat, if it's old. A 2 channel 7 day programmer. Pop some cleaner in the system, then drain down a week later and fit trvs on all rads bar towel rail and hall one.

 

[Larches]

Personally. I would go new cylinder stat, if it's old. A 2 channel 7 day programmer. Pop some cleaner in the system, then drain down a week later and fit trvs on all rads bar towel rail and hall one.

Thanks for this and again to everyone else for your help. :icon14:

 

[Larches]

OK, so finally getting round to looking at new programmers, and I was thinking maybe a Danfoss FP715 or a Honeywell ST9400C (any views on those welcome). Had a Drayton programmer in the last house and found it a pain to use (not intuitive, and the buttons kept sticking) so not keen on having another of those. Horstmann seem suspiciously cheap and some very mixed reviews (so also not sure about iQE which looks the same). As for Salus, never heard of 'em.

In terms of fitting, I'm not sure I want to tackle that job myself. There's a right rat's nest of wiring behind there. I think if I got another Potterton programmer (EP2) it would be a simple swap job - just plug it into the existing backplate (assuming hinges/clips etc are all the same), but I've read a few too many comments about "rubbish" Potterton kit to want to fork out 70-odd quid on the new model, when I can get what seem to be better-regarded models for less.

The other thing is, mine is mounted on a tiled surface, so you've got the footprint of the EP2002 cut out of the tiles with the backplate and backbox behind it, therefore something like the Danfoss might be tricky to fit, as its dimensions are slightly smaller.

So, is this the kind of job a plumber is going to relish taking on, and are we likely to be talking silly money, given the wiring and (especially) the cosmetic aspect, even assuming it's reasonable to expect a plumber to take care of that part of it?

As an alternative, I'm wondering if I'd be as well swapping my room thermostat for a programmable one and just setting the heating to always on (therefore leaving the programmer controlling the HW only). Maybe a Danfoss TP5000 or Honeywell CM907 (which cost a bit more but I could fit it myself), but that's all well and good until the old (and it is old) programmer packs in, and then I'm back to square one (but having shelled out for a fancy stat). Who knows how long the thing will last, so seems a bit of a gamble.

Any views on all of that lot?

Thanks...

 

[doitmyself]

I'm wondering if I'd be as well swapping my room thermostat for a programmable one and just setting the heating to always on (therefore leaving the programmer controlling the HW only). Maybe a Danfoss TP5000 or Honeywell CM907 (which cost a bit more but I could fit it myself)

That's your best bet. Go for the 907

but that's all well and good until the old (and it is old) programmer packs in, and then I'm back to square one (but having shelled out for a fancy stat).

Not really. Don't forget that the "old" programmer, with CH set to "always on", it is effectively a single channel timer. So, when the old programmer packs up, you just need to buy a single channel timer for the hot water; the CM907 will continue to control the heating.

Something like the Honeywell ST9100A (24hr) or ST9100C (7 day), which have the useful extra hour button (3 hrs max) for when the water runs out unexpectedly.